Thanks Rita!  I have no idea what it really means yet.... 


i wish i was on a mountain looking at the sunset.

I think Clegane just feels sorry for her... he's the anti-knight. She thinks knights are lovely and help damsels in distress. She is wrong. It's thugs like Clegane, who do so on whim, or perhaps simply because the knights do not.

Cate is, I think, bonkers. She's essentially been unhinged by being separated from her children. Her judgement calls have been absolutely awful since Robb went to war. SHe's gone rather like her sister, seeing catastrophe everywhere and only wanting to keep her brats safe.

I'm rather missing Robb chapters - though I suspect he won't get any more now. I just feel he's been sidelined too much, his actions merely reported... which was okay for a book or so, but it's almost like he's become unimportant.

I think what Sandor Clegane feels for Sansa is much more than pity, though without knowing him better I'd hesitate to put my finger on just what it is.  Pity would not be enough to make him risk visiting her after he'd deserted, or to have him offer to take her with him & kill everyone who tried to hurt her. I think there's something more there - that she represents something for him, something around which he can wrap his hatred & anger; that he's caught between despising her, being fascinated by her, and (a man's a man) wanting her, and wanting to protect her.  Well, some would call that love.  I wouldn't, but I definitely think it's more than pity.

In any case, Sansa's alone again.  She lost her direwolf in book 1; now she's lost her Hound.  Who will protect her now? 

I'm done, believe it or not.  It would have been another 2 weeks if I didn't have a good reading vacation.  I was more satisfied with this ending than with book 1's.  That was a nice closing line from Bran.

Okay - I knew from the start that something was up with Bran & Rickon's supposed deaths.  It just wasn't like Martin to spare his readers that scene, if it had really happened.

What's up with Rob?  It's so strange we saw so little of him - it's not like there wouldn't be interesting conflict there.  It can't be easy being a 16 year old king with a war on your back and all your siblings lost, or hostages, or besieged or killed or on the Wall.  I think Martin could have easily dropped all those chapters with Daenerys (did anything really happen there anyway?) and give us more Rob.

So Catelyn's lost in her depression...good possibility.  It happened for a little while in the first book, when Bran fell.  But I'm not sure it made her perspective particularly interesting, to have her depressed and out of it for a whole novel. 

knighthawk wrote:

I believe Martin was the first fantasy writer I ever read who did that convincinlgy.

Ah hah!  Maybe that's why fantasy gets such a bad rap.    I like the quote in your signature, knighthawk.

rita aguilar wrote:

knighthawk wrote:

I believe Martin was the first fantasy writer I ever read who did that convincinlgy.

Ah hah!  Maybe that's why fantasy gets such a bad rap.    I like the quote in your signature, knighthawk.

Hoisted by my own petard!!! Ahahahahahahahaha. I also think you really nailed the Hound's psychology. Unlike the "baddies" lower level stories, he's actually a very complex person.


Jaime is awesome, V. He was what I was referring to most when I was marveling at how differently he can make you feel about a character when he puts you in their POV. It's like you're almost in a different book.


Yes, the plot hole with the dragons is tough.

I haven't been reading the posts! well I just glance at them

I'm only a quarter way through...
The only thing I really love so far are the wolves!! I love wolves. I can't believe I don't have a wolf in my story.

I like Ned, but I'm guessing he's going to get the chop, so I'm not getting attached. I guess he's like the mummy wolf. He has to die so the kids can SHINE! cuz I guess it's about the kids.

I like how the characters are connected to their wolves. The wolves are foreshadowing what is going to happen to them... I'm guessing.
So I like Jon the best so far - the only one so far. I hope that he will be the true king and rule over everything! that would be cool. so his wolf is Ghost, and like Jon, who has no substance, no permancy - no weight. He can come and go as he likes, do what he likes to some degree.  Invisible.  perhaps something from a bygone time. A remnant of something ancient. Dead...

and Robb, has Grey wind. So perhaps he will become untouchable... ungraspable, can't be captured...? Fast...?  where did he go?  where is he?

Lady, has got to be the pretty princess in pink sitting in a tower somewhere. Exactly what her name suggests.

the Witch Queen, this sounds very promising!  perhaps this is what her character will become. I'd like to see that.


and Bran, not named so far.  I'm guessing his future is unclear as yet. and really he should have died. A turning point might come for him.

and shaggy dog... awwwww! niice. something to do with dogs...?


can someone tell me that Catelyn dies. please. i hate when I have to beg for characters to die.  She's so stupid! already, so soon.

I have no idea about any of this.  I like to try to predict things. Of course you all know what happens - it's just my thoughts right now.  If anything it fires my own imagination up.

Last edited by LouLou S (03-23-2010 07:26:10)

Yes, I'm loving the metaphors I've seen so far. You are right about the names. Stark is very cold and wintery. 
And as soon as I saw the map of the wall I actually thought maybe it was an alternate world reflecting Hadrian's wall - in it's glory days.  Maybe there's some Wild Pics over there!!

I sounded awful about Catelyn, but really I'm not enjoying her character and she makes me cringe.  She makes her husband take the Hand job  but doesn't think about the consequences of that - 'Oh, it's going to affect me?'    and opens that secret letter in front of that maestro man - which could be very dangerous for him - as well, they don't know what he will do with the information.
and on a personal note;  she doesn't strike me as a very noble personality. Selfish in a way. I know I'm being biased in a way because she doesn't like Jon.  But he comes across as more noble of character than her - the adult. He could create spite and resentment like she tries to, but doesn't. And most likely all his life he hasn't.  And all the kids (bar Sansa?) love him, despite their own mother's hatred of him. That says alot. 
She should protect what belongs to Winterfell. Not destroy.
so I guess out of spite - I'm saying I would like Jon to succeed and her to witness that.

and that's all I'm up to right now. Bran is injured.  I think that Ned is going into a nest of incestuous vipers and him and the king will eventually get killed. I don't have much time to read alot. I read a chapter here and there. I just feel like reviewing it. I wish I could ask Martin stuff 
give him a Louie review!
poor guy


Martin really has written this for the screen. But I think that's what he's been doing previuosly - writing screenplays.



sorry about the pun!   we're talking metaphors right....?   

Last edited by LouLou S (03-23-2010 17:41:08)

aargh!! i don't have time to do this... but I could talk about books for hours, days!  loooove discussing books 
ok, first a disclaimer!  i use characters as emotional punching bags.  it saves me doing it to real people. haha!!  you see how hard I am on female characters.  but his females are not badly written.

But Ned wasn't going to take the job, she persuaded him to take it.   but yes, he still could have said no...

I understand about her grief over the husbands infidelity but it shouldn't be taken out on a child. That's where she seems immature. It's the husband who did the dirty. the child is innocent!   I don't think you'd be like that with a small child....? a toddler? nooo.  really?
i don't care about men and husbands enough perhaps  hehe!!  i care about kids!
I didn't think they were married at the time...?


when she says 'it should have been you'  who fell off the wall, that just seems petty and childish. And he doesn't react at all.

but on a story level I see how great it is to show the conflict a bastard child faces. And I like how the character (Jon) has probably gone through alot of family crap and I'm guessing will come through all that with his head up and reaping what he has sown (reacting with forgivness) and will be more successful than Catelyn - who will reap what she has sown.  Hardness of heart, perhaps lack of mercy in her life...   idk, I'm just guestimating.
maybe one day she'll regret the way she's acted toward him....   

ooh, the Berlin wall! is it like that? 
I was just going on the visuals of the map and how it looks like the UK and where the wall is.


anyway, like I said, I'm quite slow at reading it.  I just slot a Martin chapter on my list of all the stories here! haaha. that's why I feel like reviewing it.  you will be finished all of them before I've finished the 1st one probably.




To add;  ok! I'll try to be nice           

Last edited by LouLou S (03-23-2010 19:23:09)

Lord Frey's wedding feast in book three is most interesting. While I didn't like the first half of book three as much as the previous two overall, the second part (in the UK book three comes as two separate books) is probably the best yet.

Although Cate's decisions are absolutely appalling in general (I think she's maybe made two good decisions thus far, and those in fact not so much decisions as acts of diplomacy), I think she's one of the best characters. Just as bonkers as her sister though, just not so obviously.

Rita, I think Cate's decisions are made almost entirely from the perspective 'this will be best for my children if everything goes well'. Whilst this is very common, it is easily rebutted by the question 'when was the last time things went well?' Every decision she makes is based on an - often unrealistically -optimistic outcome for that choice and a pessimistic view of what will happen if that specific choice is not made. She is excessively anxious when she needs to hold fast and excessively bold when caution or the status quo is favoured. This is very realistic, but it doesn't make her decisions any less awful, even from only the information she has at hand. Also she fluctuates rather wildly in her estimation of, for example, Tyrion. And bases her assessemt of Jaime on nothing more than a pious hope that everything will have remained the same as it was six months ago. Which is insane.

So, I agree with most everything you guys have said here about Cate - I'm not condoning her decisions, I'm just saying she seems very real to me, with all her character flaws.  Very human.  And her identity&world is entirely wrapped up in her children, which I think is exactly what would happen to many women in her position in this kind of society. 

It's still my impression that in book 1 she does a pretty good job with her decisions - the best she can under the circumstances.  But yes, in book 2 she unravels completely, and the only explanation for the decision to release Jaime is that she's lost it. 

Much can be said about our modern form of communication in relationships.

Uhm, er, yeah...when 'modern communication' happens, that is.   My husband is a psychologist & deals with these sorts of scenarios all the time.  At times it's made me a little pessimistic about what people can and cannot rise above.

but I'm hungering for something deeper -  so I can justify why and how, and above all, grow in understanding why a woman might have these thoughts.

So, I think what happens with me is that I can put a lot together in terms of motivations based on what I think (assume) about basic human nature and the context in which the character lives & acts.  I don't always need to see into a character's thoughts to believe I know why they're doing what they're doing.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say even Cate doesn't understand why she does what she does.  So seeing more into her thoughts probably wouldn't help us too much in that respect.  But I do think Martin paints her very well, even if she's not very likeable and even if she makes foolish decisions.

Lou - just wait 'til you get to book 2 and see what Cersei does with _her_ husband's bastards.  Then you'll look back on Cate and say "She was actually really generous with Jon..."

and I've been thinking, Rita, your writing is just as good as Martin's.

Wow, Lou!  Whatever you were on when you wrote that - I want some!    But seriously - thank you. That's got to be one of the best compliments I've ever received.  Yup, me & Martin.  Neck & neck...  [sigh]  Sorry, I like to say it but I just can't quite believe it.  Maybe someday, 20 years from now, I'll produce something on the scale of what he's done. But not now.  I'm just not there yet.

Years ago I read an interview with Isabel Allende.  It was shortly after she got her first big break with "House of the Spirits".  She mentioned that a literary critic had said Allende would not prove herself as a quality author until she developed a well-rounded male character in one of her books.  (I actually think the grandfather of "Spirits" was very well done, but that's beside the point...) Anyway, Allende said - and rightly so - that there are plenty of male authors out there who are lauded as being "great" even though they've never written a well-rounded female character.  So why, pray tell, was this step-out-of-your-gender standard being applied to her?

When I started "Eolyn", I think I was pretty sure I'd be able to do her justice as a character.  But I was worried (and still worry sometimes) about whether I could capture Akmael.  He's a very rich, complex guy, and in many ways I think he has the more difficult decisions of the story.  And he's a man, a warrior, a king.  All kinds of things that it's not always easy for me to relate to. 

Well, I'm really digressing.  And I don't have time for this discussion right now, either!  But it's sure been fun.

I'm so glad you've started the first book, Lou.  It took me forever to get through Game of Thrones, but books 2 (& now 3) went more quickly.  Of course, it may be helping that Venator's setting the pace.

I enjoyed the Thorn Queen's first scene.  I'm curious to see where Martin takes her.  I have a feeling she might give Cersei a run for her money.  (Or perhaps a run for the kingdom?)

About modern communication;  I guess I mean  society knows the benefits of it, and that it's key to our relationships working and flourishing (and doing everything they are supposed to)  BUT we don't often put communiation into practice.  I'm assuming in Martin's world they have no clue how important this is! hehe
and WOW!! your hubby is a phsyc!!  oh that's cool.  I think writers are physcologists without the degree!   

now about knowing a character's thoughts. I understand your views but my view is the opposite. (so there's no right or wrong!) I assume it's just an individual preference. I have discovered I crave that inner dialogue. I've been spoilt on this site, and it's opened my eyes to a new way of writing.  It's almost as if I need to move away from those surface thoughts. I'm actually starting a new project that leans toward this style - but that's something else 
I want to know about people (dare I say, real people)!  For instance,  the arc of Jon and Cate and Ed and the family could be a whole story to me. Just that alone!  The family trying to grow up together. Do you understand what I'm saying?  I could (if I had the skill) write a whole book about the family trying to rebuild after an affair with a child outside the marriage come to live with them. It would be quite intricate, all the relationships,..... hmmm.  My reading needs have changed  -  and even my writing direction.
I think I've talked about this before...  we don't know peoples thoughts in real life. But I often would like to know why people do the things they do. To perhaps understand humans. Writing gives us this avenue of finding out about each other and how we think. What if there wasn't this in writing?   but really, this isn't the place for discussions like this    I have a way of derailing topics. PLEASE  don't feel a need to respond.


so in saying all that, Martin's story is just like an action book, where I can't really get attached to characters that well. However - Great story! It's like a serial on TV. i can see why they would want to make it into a visual series.  It's perfect.


Rita!  I mean it.  People prefer different writing styles/voices. I think Martin is a great writer, but i'm not enamoured by him. I've read books where I have to finish to the end, and I'm not getting that with this. I think that's because there are so many characters, there's a different one each chapter. Your book is what I like. One main character as the focus, and I can experience more of her thoughts. And just because I'm not reading your work every day doesn't mean I don't think it's fantastic. (I often worry people will think that)   
the difference between you and Martin -  Eolyn is not YET published.
I just read Nathan Bransford - Curtis Brown, blog. If you follow it check it out. You might find it interesting in regards to how you view yourself next to Martin.



it's the stories that I love and not the authors writing style. Their style helps make the story seen and come alive. But it's always the story that wins it for me.

Last edited by LouLou S (03-24-2010 18:31:58)

Venator wrote:

(as an aside one of my friends was once told he was patronising by a woman in a pub. He replied 'Patronising? How did a pretty thing like you learn such a big word?' I should add he's actually a nice chap and not in the least chauvinistic, he just couldn't resist the opportunity when it was presented).

So, how did that work out for your friend, Dave?  Did he end up with a mug of beer in his face, or did he get to take the lady home?  (I'm guessing it was one or the other - nothing in between. )


I love having most of the Hound's character left to my imagination. 

LouLou S wrote:

I've read books where I have to finish to the end, and I'm not getting that with this. I think that's because there are so many characters, there's a different one each chapter.

I totally hear you on this one.  Martin drove me a little nuts in the first book with his cast of thousands. But, like I've mentioned, once you get through book one the hard part is over, since there aren't really that many new players introduced in the later novels.

I don't have anything against the chapters being like that. I kinda like that format. But it makes it hard getting close to the characters. I can see that he is setting the world stage, the reader gets little tidbits of each character.
and now this chapter I've just read...

you know how NUTS I am!!!

my review to Martin

Chapter titled Eddard. page 91. Book 1
Hi Martin
Another great chapter. I'm really warming to Eddard, but Robert makes me cringe. Can he be that stupid?
I noticed the hesitancy when it came down to who would be a Warden of the East. Either Robert knows that Eddard would have a problem with this or there is something wrong behind the scenes. Why does he not ask his brother Stannis?  I wondered if there was some sort of blackmail that is happening?  I believe Robert knows more than what he cares to tell Eddard
and this has been bugging me - why the heck is Eddard called Ned and not Ed?!

there is so much in this chapter I have to admit I was floundering and had to read through some parts twice. It's all the different names and no faces to put to them. I liked seeing Dany and the Dothraki appear in their dialogue. that was cool
but I'm confused about this - Rhaegar..?  so Rhaegar's wife is murdered as well...?  is this Eddard's sister?  why does  Robert say that Rhaegar raped Eddard's sister?   Was she murdered? 
and is Rhaegar Dany's father?  (and the brother, who I've forgotten his name)   Can you please clear this up?
it can't be I guess, I think I recall her mother died in childbirth...?

At least Robert knows he will have a problem to deal with when Jaime comes into his rightful role of Warden in the West. so it makes me wonder why Robert goes to the trouble of making him a Warden in the East.

I love how Eddard comes across as kind of paranoid about Jaime sitting on the throne. Yet he is so correct. I can't believe Robert is that daft. Perhaps he really is just a fat loud jolly man.
and now we have a name for Jon's mother. I feel that Jon (and his parentage) is central to the long term plot of this story.

Also, a suggestion;  Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war.   perhaps change the 'that' to an IT. because I was really wondering what Ned was naming murder.

Your dialogue language is fantastic!


Please feel free to answer or not!  sorry for lameness.  I'm not trying to bring down his writing or him! This review is real.(and kinda fun) LOL
I won't do this all the time, don't worry.

Last edited by LouLou S (03-25-2010 05:41:43)